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Post by sam on Sept 7, 2018 21:27:15 GMT
Always like to give a new manager time and don't like to criticise too much however have to agree that John's time might be up. As stated it's now 10 competitive games & 10 defeats. Got to be one of the worst starts to a Season by any team in Scottish football. It's obvious from the manager & players side that, even at the lowest level in the SPFL, the step up from the Juniors is a step too much for many of our guys. Wow, One statement I never thought I would read...…….. The most one sided poster in this forums history, and I mean that in the nicest way Iain, has given his verdict. All those other endless posts regarding the managers position pale into insignificance now
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Post by k70 on Sept 7, 2018 21:53:20 GMT
The board , the coaches ,the manager are all looking at this from a personal / singular point of view. The supporters are looking in from the outside and see it as a bigger picture. Forget your egos / failings / worries. If you don't move off the club will be no more. Please resign Mr Brogan for the sake of the club which gave you your start and glory! Don't make them sack you please please.
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Post by terrygillooly on Sept 8, 2018 9:42:27 GMT
Oh, Don't remember much of that couple of hours, other than John Gemmell pouring a couple of bottles of beer over my head in the dressing room. The big B has still not paid the drycleaning bill that I sent him. Those were the days, success on a £50k playing budget, when everybody from Hughie the groundsman (God bless him), Sandra, the pie stall manageress (God help her, she's my missus) right up to Frank Meade were in it together. Not long afterwards the club was spending about £200k on the playing side. Not hard to see where/when the current predicament arose. Robert Watt Hi Robert, hope you don’t mind me asking but your comment got me thinking. If we had a £50,000 playing budget why was the club in over £250,000 of debt prior to the Rangers match in March 2014. What would have happened to the club had we not drawn Rangers when we did? Many Thanks Terry G
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Post by marmiteman on Sept 8, 2018 17:49:11 GMT
Hi Terry,
If I remember correctly we had a £196,000 overdraft at RBOS at the time.
No doubt a fellow shareholder at the time will be able to check the annual accounts to confirm.
Peter
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Post by terrygillooly on Sept 8, 2018 17:58:20 GMT
Hi Terry, If I remember correctly we had a £196,000 overdraft at RBOS at the time. No doubt a fellow shareholder at the time will be able to check the annual accounts to confirm. Peter Thanks Peter, I am sure there were directors loans on top of the overdraft. Thanks Terry
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2018 20:55:26 GMT
Terry.
The original debt was between £400k and £500k when Frank Meade took control of the club's financial position. That included an overdraft in excess of £250k, which was costing the club a fortune to service as the 'penalty' rate of Interest being applied was 30% because our agreed overdraft at the bank was only £200k from memory (you'll be aware that when a customer exceeds their agreed overdraft limit the interest rate is hiked to an exorbitant rate to deter the customer, and get them back into line). That rate is then applied to the whole overdraft, not just the excess.
Apart from the bank there was substantial tax debts, both IT Paye/NIC's and VAT, amounting to over £100k which had been allowed to build over a very long time. There was also a myriad of other creditors, any of whom could have taken the club into Insolvency at the drop of a hat. I put forward £75k over a period to avoid that happening, paying the most pressing debts off one by one.
Frank presented the bank during numerous meetings with the information that they required and plans for repayment of the debts. That gave the bank comfort, and as long as we performed as agreed they were willing to allow us to continue trading. I believe that part of that agreement saw our overdraft limit extended, which reduced substantially the interest that we were having to pay.
Frank met with HMRC in Edinburgh and came to an agreement re the tax arrears, which involved paying current monthly debts with an agreed monthly payment towards the arrears and substantial interest and penalties levied. I believe that that agreement took some 4 years to complete. By about 2012 we had got the club onto something of an even keel financially and the bank was happy to continue with the support it was giving as to all intents the only significant creditors at that point were the bank and me. I was able to get £25k back in 2013 from memory, as we were by that time starting to get into a decent position and the overdraft could stand that hit.
During early 2014, John Devlin agreed to repay an ex-director £50k by monthly payments to settle an ongoing dispute . I was still owed £50k too. If your figure of £250k is accurate, and we exclude the Directors Loans of £100k, the bank overdraft and other creditors must have reduced to £150k in total before the windfall of the Rangers double header. After the Rangers games the bank took its money, albeit they then agreed to a much reduced overdraft facility to allow the club to function.
We hadn't eaten into that new overdraft by the end of the season and I understand that in the early summer of 2014 the club had some £90k in the bank account.
From memory, for 6 seasons the playing budget was £50k, followed by 3 seasons of £70k, although the wages for 2013/14 went through the roof due to the bonuses paid for the cup run which was not expected, or built into earlier projections. We always took the position that we would not have a cup run, so any extra income came as a bonus, thereby enabling the debt to be reduced.
If we had not got the cup run and the Rangers games, the club would have continued to work within it's budget, given the support of the bank continued, and hopefully gradually reducing it's debts as it had been doing during the previous 8 years.
I'm unsure where Peter gets £196k (just saw his post), presume it could be after I got £25k back, but I am not certain. The company accounts will give more accurate info, as I am writing this from memory. If there is anything that is inaccurate, it is not deliberate and I hold my hands up.
Robert Watt
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Post by terrygillooly on Sept 8, 2018 21:28:26 GMT
Thanks a lot Robert, it’s an absolute credit to you for putting up your own money and every Rovers supporter is aware of the fantastic job Frank done in keeping the club operating - not sure if we would be here without him. Regarding the dispute with with the former director, with hindsight, do you think it was wise for the club to spend a six figure sum fighting the case?
Many Thanks Terry G
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2018 0:09:29 GMT
Terry, this isn't the environment for discussing this issue.
Robert
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Post by terrygillooly on Sept 9, 2018 10:41:48 GMT
Robert, please accept my apologies, it’s my first day on the forum and I had seen some recent posts from you detailing financial details from loans and recent AGMs and just thought it was the norm. I will wait till the Clyde prediction thread come up before posting again.
Many Thanks Terry G
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2018 13:04:03 GMT
Hi Terry.
I think that you will find that my reference to loans is to state that the current chairman was part of the group who committed the club to the debt.
That was in response to another poster who quoted a rate of 40% interest. Clearly, if that figure is accurate, it is the case that somebody else has been given information re the details of the loan (knowledge that I was not privy to before that post).
Your comment 'I had seen some recent posts from you detailing financial details from loans' is inaccurate and has no foundation.
You will find what I did say on the thread Crisis What Crisis.
If you doubt what I am saying here, check all of my posts. Before writing this, there were 23 available of the 24 that I am credited with. The other one was a couple of years ago.
Robert Watt
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Post by terrygillooly on Sept 9, 2018 14:17:13 GMT
Hi Robert,
2 questions.
Do you believe that this is the correct environment for a former club chairman to be discussing loans regardless as to who started the thread?
Looking at a post last night from Grant which showed when all directors started and resigned it showed you as leaving August 2014 - where you part of the John Devin board that increased the budget?
I joined the board January the following year so have no idea who done what and when.
Many Thanks Terry G
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 13:27:37 GMT
Terry, like yourself I was unaware of who did what or when regarding the budget. John contacted me by phone, I think that might have been while I was in hospital (I'm not sure), to advise that he was changing the manager. I didn't put up much resistance to that, other than to remind him that we had just had a very good season with James Ward in charge of the team. There was no discussion re the level of the budget for the coming season. He did mention the donation to Cash for Kids, and felt that it would raise the club's profile and attract better people to the BOD as well as bigger Sponsors, etc.
I had already intimated at the end of the previous season that I was stepping down, but stayed on in name only until John put his new BOD in place. Frank had already left in May, and as I was lined up for a double hip replacement in mid June, I felt it was time for a completely fresh start at the club. As it happened, I didn't set foot out of my own home for 6/7 weeks, so wasn't about the club in the close season because I couldn't drive myself about. I stepped down officially at the start of the new season.
Regarding discussing the loan. It is clear that many people, shareholders and supporters alike have been aware of the loan for a couple of years. It has been out there for better or worse. I don't know the detail of the loan, but feel that we are where we are with it, and the football club has to live with what has been done and see it through until cleared. It is however having an effect on current finance and the club's ability, to some extent, to sign the level of players we might like to employ. That is the context in which the question was put and I responded. Whether it was appropriate to do so for an ex-chairman, I doubt it, but I don't think that I gave out anything new that could remotely be classified as a secret.
I am about to go into a darkened room for a session of self-flagellation as a penance for my sin.
Robert Watt
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Post by terrygillooly on Sept 10, 2018 14:05:21 GMT
Hi Robert,
Many thanks for your response.
I think ultimately we are all looking for the same thing - good results on the park, hopefully starting on Saturday at Clyde.
On a lighter note, Pat asked me to pass on his best wishes to you and Frank and if you are available for a coffee and a catch up.
Many Thanks Terry
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 15:04:56 GMT
Terry,
An hour of self-flagellation followed by 10 minutes in a cold shower, does wonders for me.
On a darker note, my recent concern is for the welfare of the club.This is clearly going to be a long hard season for the club and we couldn't be going to a harder place than Clyde on Saturday. I've seen them 3 times this season, and if Goodwillie and Love up front, Nicoll, Rankin and McStay in the middle are up for it, it will be very difficult to get anything, but here's hoping.
Tell Pat I'll call him. I lost your note, but found a number for him in my wife's phone. Didn't know she still had it until I mentioned his name on Friday.
Robert Watt
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